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Fragmentation: Or, we need to be united before we can branch
Quote:I'm curious about your audio quality issue....

My audio is fine on everything else and always has been I'm currently running a asus xonar with a set of AKG cans connected to it, I've also used discord on 3 seperate computers with different set ups and it all sounds the same.

Quote:I, too, have had a couple crashes. They seem to be java related....

My windows install is only currently a few weeks old and doesn't have java installed. Being fairly bare bones setup at the moment, yes its probably a conflict somewhere I just wanted to mention it as others may have issues.

Quote:Regarding the size of the window...

My problem was it has to be large for messages other then really short ones or small images to be legible at small sizes not that you can't resize it.

Quote:As far as "what do we gain from it?" I'd say that's pretty simple: accessibility.
Its not really more accessible then any other voip client as clicking the link takes you to the web interface that push to talk only works when you have the window selected and is very limited, so you cant really use it to play games and chat. So you still have to download the client, but unlike other clients its not a case of download>install (audio set up tends to be part of this with the option to skip)>paste details>click connect; instead it is Sign up for a account>verify account via email>download client>install>find where to enter details/be talked through the process>paste details>click connect.

As I said I don't mind which voip client we use and will use what ever one everyone else is, I was just trying to highlight the issues I've experienced with it. At the end of the day its a beta product at the moment and there are many ways to make it better, I just don't think its ready for prime time at the moment.
(05-05-2016, 21:36)SilentChain Wrote:
Quote:Sign up for a account>verify account via email>download client>install>find where to enter details/be talked through the process>paste details>click connect.

That's weird. I guess I was lucky in that I didn't have to do any of that to start actually chatting in the program. I just clicked a link, it opened in a browser, and I was talking. 
  • Verifying the email is secondary to keep your account, not necessary to start.
  • Downloading the client is secondary, not necessary to start. Furthermore, once you've clicked the link to join in a browser, if you DID verify your email (one would assume you did if you were willing to download the program) then it keeps your channels in memory already. Not sure where the "enter details/be talked through the process" thing comes from. Even if that WAS necessary, it's a lot easier when you can actually talk someone through it USING Discord in the browser while they set up the program. But, again, none of that is necessary to start.
  • Push to talk is a preference, not necessary to start. (and not even disabled in the browser version, just not as convenient)
The audio issues may be the same related to your audio cards and mimic the sort of issues you guys have with your high-end GFX cards: you spend a lot for the "Best" but it isn't always supported perfectly. I'm just curious why you're the first person to say it sounds worse than Mumble, when a group of us have been using it every night for hours and think it sounds exactly the same (clear, better than TS/Vent, etc).

Is your Windows install 10? I'm using 7, and my crash certainly says Java in the report. Curious what your logs say, any insight?

Re: chat size, I'm not following your logic. Did you see my window size? Is there a problem with reading the messages? That last one that was sent in my screenshot was actually decent size for what the chat is typically used for.

I guess we could go around-and-around on this forever, really. It seems like we're having two wildly different experiences, and I'm curious as to why that is. I've now used Discord with three separate groups, and all of them have been nearly flawless experiences for me. I've had the odd java crashing, as I mentioned, but that's not a huge deal as it self-restarts after clicking the pop-up.

Why do you think our experiences are so different?
I have a dual screen set-up so I keep discord on the smaller screen while I play with one the larger one. I have only a few issues with discord where I will randomly lose my ability to hear, which is easily fixed with a restart of discord. The accessibility of it is really the great prize of discord. All you need is to click a link and you are into whatever discord server the link was used for. It will easily launch either in your browser or in the app depending on if you installed the app or not. At this point, Jaarka has basically said everything I am going to. The thing is great and makes keep track of a variety of servers quite easy with the list being on the side. You just have to click and you can go through the text chats of each. You only have to click on the voice channel to join it like you would via TS, Mumble, Vent, etc. There is even an automatic movement to the AFK channel if you want it. Discord has a lot of versatility along with being easily accessible.
I'm not trying to go around in circles I was sharing my experiences and issues I've had with it so far, talking in layman terms. But I guess forming my own opinions about stuff is bad and wrong during a time when were meant to be testing a program to see whether it is reliable enough and good enough to use. So I'll break it down into a more technical stand point, as it will expand on things hopefully making them more clear.

The sound quality issue is across 3 different audio chipsets those being: 
*the Burr-Brown PCM1796 *4 and Cirrus-Logic CS5381* 1 which is a chipset that operates on the dolby, open al and asio standards of the asus xonar  
*ALC892 by Realtek which operates on its own propitiatory audio standards also known as realtek HD audio (this is the onboard audio chip on about 85% of all motherboards)
*ALC3246 by realtek using the Waves MaxxAudio Pro propitiatory audio standards

If that sample size was not a large enough here is a link to over a few hundred people with different setups with the same problem, relating to the audio quality of discord compared with just about every other voip client under the sun (I got bored of looking at different sites with hundreds of comments by about page 3). I found this while trying to see if there was a way to make the audio any better and what codec it was using for compression.

The actual issue which was easier to put as "muffled and tinny" then write all this out is that discord uses a really low bitrate in comparison to other client (20kbps-96kbps, with 40kbps on average). This is in addition to the fact that before the audio even reaches the codec for compression, that discord tampers with the waveform of the audio stream using its own compression algorithms. These two factors have the knock on effect of which I described as "muffled and tinny" as the audio is getting compressed twice before it is even transmitted to the other user. Resulting in quality loss I haven't mentioned anything about clarity as it that isn't the issue it is the quality drop that is.

As for the codec its self it uses the exact same one as mumble and a large number of other clients with the reason it may sound worse on mumble to you being the quality setting. As I run on high quality (part of the audio wizard which is run during install unless skipped) which is approximately 128kbps bitrate, now that pretty much all broadband providers offer more then enough bandwidth to make that insignificant; meaning there is no reason to run it lower. As for TS and vent sounding worse they do at the lower bitrates and with lower quality codecs that some providers use, but for about 50 cent to a dollar extra a month you can get the better codecs at higher bitrates that do sound better. Surprisingly with sound the amount of data moved has a large effect on the quality of the audio produced, in addition to the level of compression (think mp3s or real audio files in the 90's compared to ones now available).

The "crash" it is not a java issue as the program is not written in java as it is written in ever PHP or HTML5 (probably HTML5), this is clear to see as

1) I don't have java installed on any of my computers, due to it being buggy, insecure and full of zero day exploits that oracle can't be bothered to patch.
2) The install contains no .jar files (these are what java applets are contained in)

Yes your crash could be reporting that it was a problem with java as it tends not to play well with other programs on machines it is installed on. But the problem is it becoming unresponsive before it has even loaded fully just displaying a white screen. As it is breaking in such a specular way that means you can not close it without killing the task from task manager, it is not getting to a point where it can generate a log. 

I was just trying to highlight the fact that this will be a problem later along the line, as more people add more variables resulting in it being more likely to happen to others. The following link increases the sample size again to a few hundred, as well as being proof of it not just being my setup. This problem happens on ever OS including mac, again I got bored of reading from multiple sources about it whilte looking for a fix.

Regarding the window size as I 
said it is okay for short messages 
(such as one or two sentences) 
when scaled down, but anything 
longer and you get a wall of text similar to 
how I've written this. Resulting in the inability to 
follow it while gaming without alt-tabbing 
to scroll. Making it hard to follow 
in general, while scaled. With any tall 
images also requiring scrolling,
meaning you can miss things very 
easily. In addition to this
the whole having a
chatroom such as that
makes the point of
a website with a forum
redundant, along with 
any other for of group chat.
As it draws posts away from them
meaning that there is no 
incentive for new and old
members to post anything.

Again back to accessibility yes you can just click the link and start chatting right away, but if you want to use it for anything other then a quick chat every once in a while you are required to download the app. This is due to the website being very limiting on what features it lets you use, making the app the only true way of utilising it efficiently as a gaming voip client. This is down to it being in Hammer & Chisels best interest to get you to sign up for an account and download the app, if you want the full experience and utility. Currently discord is a venture capital company with no long term way of making money, having high server and marketing costs. Meaning that the only thing they have of value at the moment is your data, which there terms and services basically mean they can use it how ever they like. So you are having to make a larger commitment to using it then you would with the rest of its competition.

So I stand by my decision that that in its current state, it is not ready for prime time. Being willing to look the other way and still use the program if that is the consensus, but I know if I was a new member and suffered from any of these issues; I for one would not join.
I never said anything was bad and wrong. I was asking why you thought our experiences were so different, especially since it seems that your usage of the program had been so little compared to the US leg of the community that's been using it nightly.

I'm curious how many new fxyz members the group as a whole has pulled in using Mumble vs Discord. I count none that have joined after chatting in Mumble (*this statistic might be skewed as we direct people here to get the Mumble info) vs at least two new members joining the forums after feeling connected to the community via Discord (Lupin and ZDamned).

I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor do I want one. I want the community to grow!

To be constructive with this post, allow me to suggest something further: using Discord while streaming or finding new members, then referring them to the forums and the Mumble info. Use it as a recruiting tool because its the easiest method to do so. We can even talk to people to help them set up Mumble. If Mumble is the VoIP client we want, we don't have to give up the accessibility and ease-of-access that Discord offers as well. Thoughts?

(Sidebar: I'm loving the debate, and happy we're having it for all to see. I just don't want any hard feelings going on because text lacks 95% of communication markers. I'm not trying to come off harsh, and apologize if that's how it was interpreted. I love you all as well as this community, and only want it to grow!)
I would love to offer my opinion on this, but I have yet to find any information on how to connect to our Discord server.
(07-05-2016, 13:06)Melty Wrote: I would love to offer my opinion on this, but I have yet to find any information on how to connect to our Discord server.
To continue the conversation, Silent brought up some issues with the chat:
  1. If you shrink it too much, it may be too small to read anything more than a few sentences.
  2. It negates the need for a forum like this.
Now, here's my big question regarding these: how is that any different than the chat in Mumble and/or the chat in Hangouts? You say a dedicated chat room will keep people for posting on the forums, and I don't disagree with that, but we ALREADY have a chat room via Hangouts. And the chat size on Mumble? TINY, smaller than Discord, even in the smaller window size I used in my example. So... how is it more at fault that the mediums we already use?

The way I see it, if we DID use Discord for VoIP and Chat, we cut out the need for multiple programs like Mumble and Hangouts. We achieve the same level of communication, but streamline it down to one source. Again, this goes towards the accessibility of it and the ease-of-access I keep bringing up. Add to that the ability to quickly add additional rooms for specific people/groups/games/whatever.

So, seriously, how is it worse than what we're already using? I don't see it.
(07-05-2016, 14:50)Jaarka Wrote: The way I see it, if we DID use Discord for VoIP and Chat, we cut out the need for multiple programs like Mumble and Hangouts. We achieve the same level of communication, but streamline it down to one source.

Nothing will replace Hangouts for me. It's pre-installed on my Phone plus most of my family use it. If I use Discord that's yet another app to install on my phone.

I don't mind Discord for VoIP but I don't see the benefit of having it installed on my phone. I'm on my PC when I have time to game Smile
"If It Ain't Broke, Fix It Anyway!"
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This discussion is excellent but I didn't expect any of this topic matter!

I have no audio or crash issues with Discord and like that it's all actually web based for accessibility. I did not know we used Hangouts (As google's reputation with social is... well... Google) and I really, really like that I can adjust other people's volumes (Hereafter called the Kozzma Effect) without having to understand positional audio!
Anything's a double entendre if you push hard enough. So I gave it to her.

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